In this throwback episode of the Unapologetically Childfree podcast, Maggie chats with Alicia Johnson, licensed therapist and coach specializing in burnout and perfectionism, about the unique challenges and freedoms of living a childfree life. They tackle the important topic of avoiding the comparison trap—emphasizing that your experiences, stress, and value aren’t less valid just because you're childfree. Alicia dives deep into how family is more than just kids, sharing how she has crafted a fulfilling life with her partner, hobbies, and close relationships. Alicia also breaks down the myths that burnout is exclusive to parents, highlighting that everyone, regardless of their life path, deserves support in managing stress, setting boundaries, and preventing overwhelm.
🌟 Episode Highlights 🌟
👨👩👧👦 Redefining Family: Family is more than kids—define it your way!
🚫 Avoiding Comparison: Your stress is real, no matter your choices.
🧘♀️ Burnout Prevention: Tips for work-life balance & setting boundaries.
💬 Share your experiences and insights in the comments section below, and let's continue the conversation!
🔔 Hit subscribe and notify so you don't miss out on valuable insights into creating a thriving childfree community.
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⏰ ep. 018—Timestamps 00:42 Exploring Hobbies & Avoiding Burnout 02:52 The Danger of Over-Identification 04:23 Freedom in Being Childfree 06:04 Addressing Burnout Early 08:40 Reframing & Validating Emotions 10:33 Struggling with Societal Expectations 14:50 Age & Decision-Making Irony 18:54 Navigating Burnout & Hustle Culture 22:37 Embracing a Slower Lifestyle 23:23 Advocating for Work-Life Balance 24:08 Choosing a Childfree Life 26:34 Long-Term Relationship Dynamics 30:20 Mental Health & Childfree Decisions 31:23 Defining Family & Setting Boundaries 39:28 Importance of Authenticity 41:28 Resources & Final Thoughts
🔗 Links:
🏝️ Come to Bali with the Unapologetically Childfree Community! Unapologeticallychildfree.com/bali
📸 Instagram: https://unapologeticallychildfree.com/instagram
📧 Join my email list for additional Childfree Content: https://unapologeticallychildfree.com/email
📕 Childfree Woman’s Path: Friends not FOMO (My ebook and journal) https://unapologeticallychildfree.com/childfreepath
✅ All the Links: https://unapologeticallychildfree.com/links
🎁 Additional Resources & Connect with Alicia 🎁
📋 FREE Burnout Checklist + Offers: [Burnout Checklist + Offers](https://www.aliciarjohnson.com/offers)
🔥 Feel the Burn(out): [Feeling the Burnout Course](https://aliciajohnson.thrivecart.com/feelingtheburnout/)
📸 Follow Alicia on Instagram: [@aliciajohnsonlmft](https://www.instagram.com/aliciajohnsonlmft)
🎙️ Subscribe to Alicia's Podcast: [Authenticity with Alicia](https://www.youtube.com/@AliciaRJohnsonOnline) Unapologetically Childfree!
🎙️✨ Hey there, Maggie Dickens here, thrilled you’re part of the Unapologetically Childfree Community– your go-to spot for finding the childfree community you never knew existed and can no longer live without. We cover all things childfree, where we share laughs, explore, and embrace life without kids and without apologies.
🎙️ Our Vibe: Imagine a cozy chat with a friend who gets the childfree lifestyle – that's our channel. From breaking stereotypes to sharing hilarious experiences, we're a community celebrating life without kids. This isn't just a podcast; it's a place for friends. Our guests are our friends, mentors, authors, experts, and listeners. Real people, real stories, and real talk about choosing a childfree life. Get ready for inspiration, camaraderie, and a few "aha" moments.
🌟 Why Subscribe? Whether proudly childfree, considering the lifestyle, or curious, we've got something for you. Expect laughs, empowerment, and genuine stories from real people navigating life without kids.
🚨 Important Notice: Please Read I'm Maggie Dickens, your Childfree Hype Woman, and licensed therapist. While I bring you valuable insights and tips based on my education and personal experiences, it's crucial to clarify a few things.
🧠 This Is Not Therapy: - Although I'm a therapist, this channel is NOT a substitute for mental health care or therapy. The content provided is for educational and entertainment purposes only.
🌟 Your Well-being Matters: - Your mental and physical health are top priorities. If you're in crisis, please reach out to local emergency services or a mental health helpline immediately.
🦄 Childfree Journey Insights: - Unapologetically Childfree is centered around embracing the childfree lifestyle, offering tips, tricks, and real-world examples. It's a space for community, celebration, and sharing experiences. Thank you for being a part of this incredible community! Let's continue to support and uplift one another on our childfree journeys. 🌈✨
🤖Disclaimer: This description was created in collaboration between me and AI.
Alicia Final
[00:00:00] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: I'm Not a morning person, hence my coffee still. Like, this is morning for me. My brain normally doesn't turn on until 11. But you're just gonna get an unfiltered version of me, so that might be better before like, my anxiety kicks
[00:00:10] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: I mean, it is the Unapologetically childfree Podcast, so this is just the "Unapologetic Alicia"!
[00:00:16] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Yeah, before the coffee, before the anxiety, before the work mode turns on, this is just, what you get.
[00:00:23] maggie_1_07-28-2024_181802: hi. Welcome to the unapologetically childfree podcast where you find that childfree community that you never knew existed and now you can't live without. I'm Maggie Dickens, a licensed therapist, but most importantly, I'm your childfree hype woman
[00:00:35] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: I'm Alicia Johnson. I am a licensed therapist and coach. One of my specialties is work life balance and burnout. I'm really trying to nurture my hobbies this year, so I'm being very intentional with leading and making space for that. because I don't need to just be defined by the things that I do to make money. I'm also a cat mom. I'm recently a wife. I am a book [00:01:00] lover. I like thrifting, I like baking.
[00:01:02] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: Oh man I love leaning into hobbies., I talk a lot about this and I'm guessing you do too with working with burnout, work life balance probably some stress management in there of just not gamifying our hobbies. I get caught up in that with reading because, you know, Goodreads wants you to like track how many books you've read.
[00:01:23] There's always, it's almost like Spotify wrapped, but for books, it's like, how many did you read? And like, what were your genres and all of that kind of stuff. And I do my best to simply say, I'm going to read. I ear read and I read I'm doing it for fun. And I'm doing it like last year. I read. around a hundred books.
[00:01:41] This year it's going to be less. It's just simply going to be less and I'm having to like be okay with that. Right? So do you find yourself slipping into the gamification?
[00:01:52] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Sometimes I also like the, like, the hustle of I need to like, how can I make money off of this? Like, my brain [00:02:00] isn't always like, Oh, you can just do this for fun, like, there needs to be this other purpose to it. So it's like, Oh I like to thrift, how can I resell this? Or how can I, you know, do I need to make an Instagram all about this now?
[00:02:13] And I'm just like, no, it doesn't always need another purpose. You know, I'm a recovering perfectionist and always need to be like, go, go, going. And it's like, wait, I can just sit and enjoy. And I can start crocheting and it doesn't have to be perfect I can just crochet really bad little animals and still have fun with that.
[00:02:34] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: Yeah. Yeah. So that's where, that's where you're at with crochet is like little animals. Like
[00:02:40] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Oh, I'm still haven't started crochet yet. So I got a kit for Christmas last year and I've been so intimidated by it. I did start embroidering. And so that, and cross stitching
[00:02:52] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: One of the things I like to talk about is not living by the one label. Therapist, employee and even in the [00:03:00] childfree community especially like this is part of my job and I have a podcast.
[00:03:04] That has the word childfree in it and it feels as if it can be this label of like all I am is this childfree person. But really it's the umbrella where all of these other things get to come in. Learning how to incorporate X, Y, and Z. And so do you find that to be true for you of you're not necessarily thinking of yourself as this one thing, like a crocheter, a, you know, a baker, a childfree person?
[00:03:29] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Yeah. for sure. And I think, especially in the work of burnout that I do, I see burnout so often because people over identify with just one of those labels. And so when something goes wrong, because life is going to happen, so if I'm only a therapist, and then let's say I can't work for who knows what, or let's say I'm really stressed at work and I'm not loving that role.
[00:03:53] My whole world then gets shaken, because that is the only thing that I am leaning on. Whereas if I can lean [00:04:00] into, maybe, four, five, heck, even two roles I at least have something else to lean on to kind of ground myself and be like, Okay, well this area might be chaos right now, but let me, let me ground myself and lean into this other part of me.
[00:04:14] And I still have value, I still have a purpose, I still have these other things whenever these other roles may change.
[00:04:21] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: Yeah. Yeah. Which I, I'm someone, especially like in this childfree space, like I, I talk a lot about the freedom and the opportunity that we have as people who have not added on another role of parenthood, that we have a little bit more of that wiggle room. to add in the fun things without having to take away from something that's really important, like raising a kid.
[00:04:48] I think the other piece is there's just even this ability to say, I'm not interested in that, right? So you can pick up a hobby and put it down [00:05:00] versus I can't just be like, I don't want to go to the kid's recital because it's
[00:05:03] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: my kid.
[00:05:04] Mm hmm,
[00:05:04] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: you know? So I think that there's also some, some level of that too, of just like when we're, when we're picking and choosing and what label it is, it's not just this one thing.
[00:05:12] It's not just like I am an employee, I'm a therapist, I'm a baker, I'm a whatever. It's I get to be whatever the heck I want to be. I get to like design it as I go along.
[00:05:22] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Yeah, and as we evolve and change and learn and grow, our roles can too, and that's, I think, yeah, a freedom and a privilege that as a childfree folk I get to do if I don't want to do something. I don't really have to, whereas there's some roles in parenthood, you don't, it's not just mom, dad, parent, you're, you know, sometimes you're a teacher, you're a cook, you have to raise, you have to do all these things, and if you don't, then you're gonna get, like, potentially in trouble for not doing some of these roles,
[00:05:50] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: and the burnout I would expect was just like, you know, astronomically higher chance, I should say, not, not guaranteed, but higher chance.
[00:05:58] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Yeah, cause you're [00:06:00] just, you don't really have the flexibility to say, I don't want to do this all the time.
[00:06:04] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: Being a burnout expert, what would you say to the people who are listening about just, okay, so we've, we've said we're, we're not going to have the one badge. that says I am the employee, the spouse, the whatever, but I'm still experiencing signs of burnout or I'm starting to get overwhelmed or a little crispy on the edges.
[00:06:26] How would you suggest someone go about addressing that kind of those early signs of burnout?
[00:06:33] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Yeah, well I think that's the key, is finding it earlier than later, cause I mean, burnout can be sneaky, it can hide for a while, and then all of a sudden we're in like this big pit of despair, and it feels so overwhelming and helpless and hopeless and all these big, very real emotions, and so, Everyone gets stressed.
[00:06:50] Everyone gets overwhelmed. Everyone, you know, has bad days. So if we can recognize those signs and then be able to address those, that's a million times more [00:07:00] manageable than literally, like, picking us, ourselves, out of those holes. And I want to say that awareness can be hard for some folks, you know, sometimes looking in words and especially like my own personal history, like I'm the recovering perfectionist, you know, I really grew up in that, I like achievement based mentality.
[00:07:17] And so for me addressing any signs of vulnerability or tiredness, that was That meant I was weak, or that's what my brain was telling me, was, well, you're weak, you're bad at your job, you're bad at whatever role you're doing, and so being able to challenge that as well, like, hey, I can be a really hard worker and still need rest sometimes, and I can actually maybe even be a better worker if I allow myself rest and recharge and fun and joy and so, yes, addressing those early warning signs are wonderful, but if that's even too hard Maybe recognizing, like, well what is that inner critic saying to us?
[00:07:56] Because normally it's not accurate. [00:08:00]
[00:08:00] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: when I'm talking to a lot of childfree people, there's this trope, there's this stereotype that we're lazy. All we want to do is just like have fun, travel, sleep in. And while all of those things are true for me, it's not all I am, right?
[00:08:16] And so sometimes when I want to rest or when someone's saying I need a break, there's this internal, inner critic that you're talking about that says. What do you have to be tired about? Sometimes we even hear parents in, in the comment section saying, you don't know, tired, those kinds of things. So do you have any kind of short, quick easy things to help someone do that
[00:08:40] You know, therapy world, we call it reframing, right? That reframing that you said you have done for yourself?
[00:08:46] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: For me, noticing that
[00:08:47] that's a comparison trap. A lot of my experience is with trauma. And so we often tell our clients who have experienced trauma, We don't compare our trauma with other people's trauma. You can still have [00:09:00] experienced a traumatic event, and someone may have objectively experienced maybe a more intense trauma than you.
[00:09:08] That does not mean that you should get over it, that you shouldn't have any symptoms, that you aren't allowed to feel the feelings that you're feeling. You are still allowed to feel and have your reactions, and they are allowed to have theirs. And I think we can do the same with tiredness. Like I work with a lot of moms.
[00:09:26] I work with a lot of burned out moms. Objectively, they have a lot of hats that they play and they are tired and they are overwhelmed. I have no children and I also get overwhelmed and tired. That doesn't mean that my feelings are less valid just because I have chosen not to add that role into my life.
[00:09:45] And so I think it's just creating space and not competing and saying your truth is valid. and so is mine,.
[00:09:52] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: When you're saying that, I just want to be like, oh my gosh, yes, thank you. Like, it's, it's permission giving, right? It's, it's saying [00:10:00] like, I get to be me. I don't have to be anybody else. I don't have to follow anybody else's requirement of me or even expectation of me.
[00:10:11] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:10:12] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: even if there's qualifications for, you know, these feelings that we're feeling. So it's like, Yeah.
[00:10:16] it's just allowing, giving ourselves this permission to be. If that means I'm tired, if that means I'm overwhelmed or stressed or juggling a lot, I can set my own baseline and standards for that. And it's okay if they're very different than someone else's.
[00:10:33] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: I talk to a lot of people about who don't understand what I do for a living and why I do it. Everybody needs exactly what you're talking about. Everyone needs assistance at one point or another in burnout, time management, stress management, self identification working through levels of trauma depending.
[00:10:53] There are these like subcategories of people, right? You grew up in the Midwest, right? I grew up [00:11:00] in the southeast of the United States. So even that is kind of a subgroup of people because there's a different culture, there's different expectations at times, there's different ways that we are told to approach the world.
[00:11:10] And so if, as a childfree person, it's just a small little subset, right? It's just a little bit of us that just adds a layer. To, to how we approach the world. So that makes a lot of sense. Not comparing ourselves and not being in this place of who am I to complain, who am I to say, you know, I'm struggling because I don't have this added stressor.
[00:11:30] Doesn't mean that you don't have any stressors.
[00:11:32] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: right. And again, it's just a role, one label that we're wearing. I'm like, even to compare all childfree people to all parents, I'm like, I know childfree people who are working multiple jobs, struggling to pay bills or they may be dealing with a chronic health condition or caring for a parent.
[00:11:52] And there's these other stressors that people may be going through. And so just to say, well, I'm going to only focus on one [00:12:00] aspect. If you have a child or no child, and that's going to be the baseline for, if you get to feel whatever feeling or experience, whatever you're experiencing, let's overlooking other labels and experiences we may be going
[00:12:11] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: Yeah, it's, oh, that hits at the core. I'm so happy that we're talking about this because it hits at the core of like the whole Unapologetically Childfree community as itself is like finding your people, finding ways that your life can be fulfilling, and recognizing that yes, you have this different label and so that's going to help kind of mold you or
[00:12:34] fuel you in a different way. It doesn't mean you have to fit into one little box. I was talking with Kelty McGuire, who works with ambivalence. She's a clarity coach. And we were talking a little bit about just like, there's so many paths that you won't ever take no matter who you are.
[00:12:54] And. Being okay with this is the path that I took and [00:13:00] finding the joy, finding the fulfillment, finding the confidence, finding that foundation is, is really important. And that's what it sounds like even just you're doing with burnout work is just getting back to that foundation. Is that kind of accurate?
[00:13:13] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Yeah, a lot of my work is going back to our values, figuring out our whys. A lot of us, we're, we're pushed into these jobs at 18 and you're expected to go to college and then figure out your major and then you have to do that for the rest of your life and then, Oh suddenly we don't like it or things change and we change.
[00:13:31] And so it's a lot of like, well, let's figure out like this foundational piece. Maybe it's. You know, challenging these old experiences that you've been through, or connecting with your values, finding a new purpose, and Yeah.
[00:13:44] that foundational work for sure.
[00:13:46] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: Oh my gosh, I feel like you just summarized like a chunk of the conversation with Keltie myself because she was talking about values and in my In my therapy work and coaching the childfree, is values based because that is [00:14:00] so much of our foundation.
[00:14:01] I use the wizard of Oz as kind of a metaphor for a lot of things. Those are the yellow bricks in the road to the Emerald City is like how do you get to your end goal? And it's following your value set you're gonna come across flying monkeys You're gonna come across and you know a wicked witch at times And yet, you know where to go and how to get there because of your values which is so key and I brought up the exact same thing that you did of like especially in American culture that there is the like, you're 17 years old and you're supposed to know what you want to do literally for the rest of your life because you have to pick the quote unquote right college that's going to help you have the right job opportunities and, you know, hopefully find the right partner because we put such an emphasis on partnering and then kids and then homes and all of this kind of stuff.
[00:14:50] And it's like, dude, I'm 17.
[00:14:53] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: 17.
[00:14:54] years old, which is so ironic, because as a childfree person, something that I've heard a lot is like, well, you're too young, [00:15:00] like, you'll change your mind, and I'm like, so at 17, 18 years old, I'm old enough to enlist in The military and fight for my country, I'm old enough to make a forever decision on my career.
[00:15:14] But at 25 to 30, I'm too young to know if I want kids or not. I'm like, the math ain't math in there.
[00:15:23] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: ain't mathing. And well, the other part and you didn't mention is like, So, my story at 20, I had like, okay, I'm loud and proud being childfree. And I had been building up to that in my late teens was already kind of aware I didn't want to ever be pregnant. I'm one of those people where pregnancy, although I know it's the most natural thing in the world, like literally the most natural.
[00:15:45] It grosses me out.
[00:15:46] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Oh, it freaks me out. Yeah, I have no desire to be pregnant.
[00:15:49] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: no, none. And, and my college roommate, bless her. According to Facebook, she's having the life that she's always wanted. She's got three kids. She always wanted to be pregnant and we would like get [00:16:00] into arguments. And I'm like, that's so nas-! No. And she's like, it's beautiful. And yes,
[00:16:05] it is biologically an amazing thing. It grosses me out.
[00:16:10] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Yeah, well and again, it's the and, like the power of and, like I can appreciate a woman's body and their ability to like transform and do that and like create and carry life. Wonderful. I have No, desire to have that happen to my body. Like that freaks me out.
[00:16:27] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: yeah, I, I've literally never touched a pregnant belly. I have a nephew, so I had that opportunity. I have friends who have been pregnant. I even had one of my friends do her very best while pregnant to try to get me to do it. And I was like, I can't.
[00:16:45] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Like pass.
[00:16:46] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: I can't. So this, like, that's my story.
[00:16:49] Like it is in my bones. I'm, I'm one of those people who's kind of on that end of the continuum. Right. That's like never really had the ambivalence. To get back to your point of like age, And so at [00:17:00] 20, I walked into my gynecologist and I was like, I want to be sterilized. I didn't know what that meant. I had no idea other than it meant like no babies forever.
[00:17:07] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Mhm.
[00:17:08] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: I also thought it meant no periods, which is not the case. So I was a little bit bummed learning about that part. But she laughed at me, was like, you young,
[00:17:18] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Uh.
[00:17:18] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: kind of young stupid girl. And the problem that I had when I was walking out of there, because she also said I couldn't have an IUD at the time because of the high risk of Like perforating your uterus and then you would be infertile and I was like, that's the point, but
[00:17:33] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: what I want.
[00:17:34] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: yeah, I mean, I guess I don't want a life threatening reason
[00:17:37] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Very fair.
[00:17:38] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: You know, so I'm walking out with my, you know, oral contraceptive prescription and I was just sitting in the car at 20 years old being like, if I had walked in and had a positive pregnancy test,
[00:17:52] she wouldn't have said you're too young to make the decision. But I was too young to make the decision of sterilization [00:18:00] or you know, an implant of some kind. And that frustrates me. Like, I can feel it in my body right now. Like, I want to go, like, shake this, this doctor.
[00:18:08] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Because again, in theory, like, if you are pregnant and you have that child, like, that's a forever life changing moment. And, and so it's like, it's the same intensity. I mean, I know it's, it's different context, but yeah, like, no one's gonna be like, oh, you're too young to have kids at 20. But apparently you're too young if you don't want kids at 20.
[00:18:27] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, I'm 37, right? Yes, I'm 37, and I still have people who are in this camp of like, I'm gonna regret it. I, I even had somebody the other day say that I'm, I'm gonna still change my mind, and
[00:18:45] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Oh my gosh
[00:18:45] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: sir, how much more, obvious can I be? Like,
[00:18:50] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: It's
[00:18:50] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: on a podcast that's called Unapologetically childfree.
[00:18:54] Anyway I think that in itself can lead to getting crispy on the edges when we think about [00:19:00] burnout because often, I don't know about you, but for me, I think about burnout work related, career related, job related. And there are things that we can get burnout about in our daily life.
[00:19:11] Relationships with our family, relationships to our friends, even just relationships to ourselves. And when we're I know I get really crispy. I still go through the comments right now because I'm, I guess, a glutton for punishment. And I get crispy sometimes. I'm like, I have to shut this. I'm getting annoyed,
[00:19:29] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Yeah.
[00:19:30] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: but it's that awareness, right?
[00:19:32] Of like, it's, it's going to lead to, to bigger issues. And so I, I really admire what you do because without people like you, you know, there's the explosions that people go through those emotional explosions.
[00:19:45] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Well, I think you bring up a good point too, so like, when I talk about burnout, A lot, like historically, it's always been like, well, you're just not doing enough self care. You know, it's on the responsibility of the person. Do you need to be doing more? But I view a burnout as a systemic issue. And so [00:20:00] even thinking about, you know, these comments, like you have used your voice and your platform to create a safe space for other people who are going through these experiences.
[00:20:08] You're leaning into your values. And so when we see comments like that, the stigma, the stereotypes, the judgment, the shame, That's a value conflict because you're like, wait, like that's not sitting well with me and that's gonna create feelings within us, and that can lead to burnout.
[00:20:27] That's like, we're working so hard to fight stigmas in whatever realm that we're doing, and when people are still enabling these things and creating these false narratives and continuing the shame, that sucks. We can feel helpless and hopeless, and it's like, oh my gosh, like, I'm working so hard to, you know, challenge this hustle culture, and then other people just make these stupid comments.
[00:20:48] Why am I even doing this? Thankfully, that voice doesn't stay too long, but it's just like, ah. It's exhausting.
[00:20:55] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: It is so exhausting and it is hard. And I think that's even where we have [00:21:00] to take a step back and, and, oh man, talking about hustle culture. I fell into that trap. I fell into the, like the boss lady and, you know, climb the corporate ladder. I was a clinical director of a very small startup program by 29.
[00:21:17] And that's like a huge, for those of you who don't know in the therapy space, people don't retire. Mainly because they can't. And and so to, to get to that point was pretty like, whoa, brush your shoulders off. Look at me. And. Honestly, it was because I was working too much, I was promising too much, I was letting people take advantage of my naivety, naivete, and also just that, like, people pleasing, and the, like, I want to be, something I talk about is, it's also playing into that other stereotype that we have, which is, if you're, if you're a childfree woman, then your work is your baby.
[00:21:54] And so I fell into that hard. So hustle culture hit me and I was like, Oh, it's like a new jacket. I'm going to [00:22:00] wear it. I'm going to show it off. I'm going to be like, you know, Oh, I'm putting in 65 hours a week at work. As if that was like a badge of honor, instead of like somebody pulling me aside and being like, That's not the flex you
[00:22:10] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: you don't need to do that. Yeah. That's not cool.
[00:22:14] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: That's, that's, that's not cool. Like, we, we don't brag about like, just killing yourself for your job.
[00:22:20] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: No. No.
[00:22:22] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: But we do, right? We fall into that. I mean, we find that in every subculture, right? Like I'm doing all of these things. I'm showing up in all of these different ways that are above and beyond, above and beyond, above and beyond.
[00:22:32] And we can get burnt out from all of those, all of those angles, which is, I don't, I can't do that anymore. I think part of, I think that's part of the reason I moved to Southern Europe. I was like, slow, easy, chill out, please.
[00:22:43] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: I know. And it's, it's wild. And I think like, you know, again, coming from my old perfectionist tendency, like it takes time to adjust to that change because our head might be saying, and I think we know the kind of full circle of just our head saying, well, you're lazy, you're this, you're this, all these narratives of, [00:23:00] oh, people just don't want to work as much or work as hard.
[00:23:02] And so you must be lazy and selfish. And it's just all these labels that aren't true. Like I can want to just have fun. Like I'm going to be on this earth for however long I'm going to live. Like. I can want to nurture my relationships. I can want to have a purpose and hobbies and fun. I don't just need to work all the time.
[00:23:23] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: I am here for this movement happening with like younger and younger people. I like to think of myself as the younger generation, but I'm almost 40, so I'm not but I'm here for this. I'm so here for the ad-. The advocation, that's not the right word. Is that the right word?
[00:23:40] Advocation, advocating.
[00:23:41] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: be.
[00:23:42] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: All, all words are made up. So this one's, this one's happening. How younger and younger people are advocating for that work life balance, that harmony in relationships, putting our needs, our values, our relational needs [00:24:00] first, and letting work be something that helps to. support that versus being the other way around, which is, which is pretty massive.
[00:24:08] So I'd really like to hear if you're open to it, kind of talking about the relationship that you've had with yourself and the choice or the, the process that you went in recognizing that you were childfree, you're making the choice to be childfree.
[00:24:22] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know exactly how far back. I can think of like as a child. Just thinking that that's what everyone does is you grow up and you get married and you have have kiddos And so, you know, I had the Pinterest board with like cute kids clothes ideas But in my family, it was very much taught like you go to college You then get married and then you think about a family.
[00:24:45] So like work and like some sort of My own independence was always nurtured and as a priority. So, you know, I I went to college, I got my masters, and then I just kind of was like, [00:25:00] wait, you know, when I started to think about the next steps of getting married and having kids, I was like, I don't know. I think I really want children.
[00:25:09] And I've been with my, my, my partner, my husband now is my high school sweetheart. And so, you know, we've been together since high school, and we've obviously changed a lot since high school. But that was something that we just kept checking in on of like, Hey, you know, right now we're working on grad school.
[00:25:22] We are not making hardly any money right now. We are putting in hours and hours and hours into our schooling. This is not the time for us to have kids. And then we got, we graduated, and we're like, well no, we're working on licensure and tests and just like, all these other things, and finally when we got to the point where it's like, I just don't think that's on our, our plate.
[00:25:46] You know, I've never had the desire to give birth to a child. I've been open to maybe like, adoption, or fostering, or you know, these alternative methods. And I'm like, I actually just don't think I want to be a mom. [00:26:00] I, we both have nieces and nephews and kids in our family that we love being that role of the aunt, the uncle.
[00:26:07] I used to be a child therapist and I loved that. And I was like, I want to travel whenever I want to travel. Like, we both work full time, and I want our free time to be able to pour into each other and make sure that we're always a priority to each other. We have friendships all across the country that we want to make time for, and we chose to prioritize those things and not choose to have children.
[00:26:34] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: It sounds like this was an ongoing kind of conversation for you.
[00:26:39] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Yeah.
[00:26:40] I mean, definitely like, less seriously in the beginning stages, where it's like, even though we're college, but it's like, you know. Like, we do not want that right now. And then definitely as we got older, it was like, Hey, just check it in. Like, I'm still not in a space where I want that. Is this still Because it is a joint decision for both of us.
[00:26:55] And so it's like, if I'm not wanting that but you do, That's a [00:27:00] very serious conversation that needs to be figured out. So it's more just like quick check ins and then not till probably maybe the last couple years. I mean, I didn't even know that was a label, like childfree by choice. I have people in my family, I have aunts and uncles who have chosen to also not have children.
[00:27:16] So I think like, it also wasn't as pressured on me because I had these wonderful role models who Got to do that, I'm like, oh, cool, that's an option I can do if I want. But I didn't know there was labels to say, like, you can be childfree. other people who also choose to be childfree.
[00:27:34] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: Yeah. It's, it's interesting that you bring up, like, not even knowing that that was a label and it's, it's wild how, I don't know, there, it feels like there's a movement that's happening. It's becoming more and more obvious that there are people who are making that active decision versus the, like, I fell into a life that doesn't have kids or that it's not the one off aunt or uncle that it really is.
[00:27:59] [00:28:00] A true lifestyle choice similar to people who choose to live on 40 acres or live in a high rise in a big city. It's, it's the same kind of purposeful life choice. But I, I really appreciate how you're talking about having this long term relationship and how there's touch points at different points in your life versus sometimes people are like, okay, I'm going to have the conversation once and then, then it's done.
[00:28:27] And then we see, at least in like the forums and Reddit is a scary place for me because I don't know, somehow I get into like the sad Reddit, like people are really like upset. And people are talking about like, Oh, I've been in this relationship for five years and they said they weren't sure, they weren't sure about kids.
[00:28:43] And now we want to be together forever, but we're on completely different ends of this very important decision.
[00:28:51] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: I don't think it's hard to compromise on that, like some things you can compromise on to have a child or not to have a child, like there's [00:29:00] not an easy compromise
[00:29:01] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: No, no. It's interesting. I think I was saying like, I've never really been ambivalent. There was a time in my life that I was not the most healthy emotionally. We all go through those moments. And I was with someone who was. Still kind of in that in that like still wanted a kid and I had always been like nope kids are kids are not my Thing and so I was in this place of like look Whatever you want to have a kid.
[00:29:31] Let's get to the point where if we can This is so bad to say like this is so how this is this is an example of how I've never wanted to have kids because I was like if we get to the point of where we have enough money to like Have a kid and we can send them to boarding school their whole life or have a live in nanny to take care of them Then cool.
[00:29:52] I will I will entertain this option No Like in no point and I was like, yeah But we're also gonna have to have a surrogate [00:30:00] because
[00:30:00] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: mm hmm,
[00:30:01] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: physically put myself through that so literally what I was saying was Sure, we can have, like, somebody else's kid have your last name. You know, like, yeah,
[00:30:14] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: random holidays. But I think like the wild thing is like you, I mean, yeah,
[00:30:17] obviously clear like that's not in line for you. And I think going back to like this active decision thing that like more people are not necessarily like passively falling into this, but really choosing the childfree life where I see it on the flip side though, too, where people aren't always actively choosing to have families.
[00:30:34] And so we see people, you know, who maybe. Don't want to do certain roles in that and then end up not wanting to do those roles. It's like, hey, could we have done some of this inward work and figured out what do you really want?
[00:30:50] Versus just doing it maybe because you think that you have to or should do this, and now your hands are tied and you're choosing, do I be miserable or do [00:31:00] I do these other things? And we see a lot of mental health concerns with parents.
[00:31:04] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: Absolutely and I do recognize that there is a privilege in Some cases of like choosing to be a parent or not There are some cases where it is there isn't a choice, which is unfortunate I do think that it's also a greater discussion about even what does family planning look like.
[00:31:23] Often we think family planning is simply contraceptives or no contraceptives, but to your point, it's really the conversation of what kind of family do I want? and for me, my family is myself, my partner, our three little dogs, and he has, you know, his parents and his siblings and their, their kids, my parents and my nephew, that's my family, right?
[00:31:54] Those people make up who my family is. And then there are some people who, [00:32:00] when they think of family, and this is, this says, this gets said all the time, I don't, I don't know, I'm guessing not at your wedding that you just recently had because you are childfree by choice and probably people know this.
[00:32:11] But many people in weddings, they're like asked at the wedding, so when are you starting your family?
[00:32:16] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: no. we got that from some of my partners. So, I'm more close with, like, my family. Like my aunts and uncles. And then, like, we don't see his extended family as much. And so, like, they're in a different generation too. And so, like, I don't take offense to, like, I give people, like, a one pass where it's like, Oh like, our kid's next.
[00:32:33] And then if we say no.
[00:32:34] then it's like, that's the end of the conversation. If they keep pressing it, that's when I get annoyed. So we only got it, I think, one time at the wedding. But
[00:32:43] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: I mean, once is nice, once is nice, and, and I like that you have like the one pass, and then this is what I talk to a lot of people about, I have like, I talk a lot about scripts, how to handle those boundaries how to have them when you want to be respectful versus just [00:33:00] like our inner snark that wants to come out And giving the like, okay, if I say no, and then if they keep going, they're clearly not interested in what I have to say.
[00:33:08] But yeah, isn't, I just find it wild to me that you're at a union. You're at two people who are saying like, this is my person, right? I'm not married, but, you know, we have said this is my person, this is my union, this is our, you know, our life choice. He's part of my family. Your husband is your family.
[00:33:26] And to say, when are you starting one? It's like, I started one back in high school. Like for you, I started one back in high school with this man.
[00:33:33] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: like, we've moved across the country together, we make major life decisions together, like, a child is not going to change that for us.
[00:33:41] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: Yeah, it's, that to me, I think there's that cultural or societal language that makes it hard for people when we think about family planning of like, people automatically say family planning is when are you having kids and planning for the when, not the what does family, what does your [00:34:00] life look like? I know that like, I had my two dogs.
[00:34:05] The two dogs were kind of an accident because I foster failed. And added a second one and then met my partner who has one. So we were both kind of people who were, we like having a dog. And then having two would have been like, okay, and now we have three. And we're like, oh my God, what are we going to do with three dogs?
[00:34:24] I mean, other than love them so, so much and spoil them so, so much. But I, you know, we live here in Portugal. We have a. 70, I think it's like 72 square meter. Like, home. Like, it's, and it's stacked on top of each other, so it's more like 35 and 35. We're like, what are we going to do? Luckily, they're small.
[00:34:44] They're like
[00:34:45] 10, 15,
[00:34:45] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: just embrace the
[00:34:46] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: pounds. Yeah, it's, and, but like, that's the planning part, right? So, if we had met each other before we had dogs, we would have even had the conversation of like, How many do we want and where do we want to [00:35:00] live and what kind of lifestyle do we want to have? He is a, he doesn't get overstimulated the way that I do.
[00:35:07] He's like loud music like all the time and I'm a person who literally can like just sit in silence and read and or clean without music on or you know, those kinds of things. Not always, but sometimes I just didn't like, I need. Like, not to have that. And so we have to figure each other out. Like, do you want a quiet, simple life or do you want something that is more adventurous or you know, more kind of, I don't know, for me, chaotic.
[00:35:38] Right? To me that's what family planning looks like and I think it speaks to what, what you're saying of like being purposeful and being intentional in the decisions you make.
[00:35:46] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Oh, Yeah. And again, it goes back to like those values and purpose where some people want to do the traveling. And it's not that it's impossible with kids, but it's just another step to think about. And again, having these conversations and there's not a right or wrong [00:36:00] answer. You just have to do what's best for you and your unit and hopefully being more active in those decisions and saying, giving yourself permission to say, Hey, I don't really want to navigate flying on a plane with small children, or, you know, the economy is wild right now here in the States.
[00:36:18] And so it's like it's. Just, my, I'd rather save up for retirement and not have to pay for all these other things.
[00:36:24] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: It's, every time I have a conversation with someone. And we talk about very similar concepts of reasons that people choose to not have kids. And what I hear in the back.
[00:36:35] of my head, because I'm still in the comments, right, are the things of like, you said, I can do that with kids too. And I always talk about not having kids doesn't make life easy, it makes it easier.
[00:36:47] And. Yes, I will own the fact that I want my life to be easier. I don't want to even, thinking of even hustle culture, I don't want my private life to be a hustle. I don't want my private life to [00:37:00] be just go, go, go. At the time that you and I are talking, I am three days into it. from leaving Portugal to go back to the States for three weeks.
[00:37:10] I have so much to do and it is just me. I think, well, and I have to make three weeks worth of dog food because I'm that dog mom who makes for her dogs. And so that's a three hour affair, but I'm like, I'm like, I cannot add one more thing. to this list. Like literally the, the guy who's going to watch my dogs, I mentioned him.
[00:37:33] I was like, I'm not going to have time. My hot water's on the fritz. I was like, I'm not going to have time to wash the dogs before I send them in. They're a little stinky. I'm so sorry. I have aromatherapy spray that's made for dogs. I'll send it, spritz them. It'll be fine. And he was like, do you want me to, do you want to send shampoo?
[00:37:49] Like literally like he's being such a good friend, but it's like. If this is how I am with my dogs, like, can you imagine if I was
[00:37:56] like, how much help I would need [00:38:00] with a kid? And as, as someone who comes from the background that I come from, asking for help is so hard for me. It is, it is so hard. Like, the way that I responded was like, I literally would never ask you to do that.
[00:38:15] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Mm hmm.
[00:38:15] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: My, my work on myself has allowed me to say, however, if you're volunteering,
[00:38:20] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Yes.
[00:38:21] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: I will send shampoo and conditioner because, of course, I'm a dog mom and they have shampoo and conditioner. And then you can definitely do that if you want to. But like, I want my life to be easier because asking for help at every turn just, I don't think I would do it and I think I would put myself into a pretty difficult mental health
[00:38:41] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Yeah.
[00:38:42] and I think we're seeing that more because, again, I think language is, you know, we're having a lot more decreased mental health stigma and more awareness on the mental load and how, especially in the States, women, particularly moms, bear a lot of that mental load and have those rates of burnout, and so [00:39:00] it's like, I'm actually being like very intentional with my, my mental load and saying, you know, some people choose to juggle all those things.
[00:39:08] I already deal with anxiety, I don't want more anxiety in this realm. I already am, you know, keep an okay maintained house, if I'm having kids I'm gonna have to double that workload or triple that workload. I'm gonna have to have my schedule be more chaotic and, and I'm choosing not to do those things.
[00:39:27] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: Yeah. Which, to me, is, I believe it's mature and responsible to have a true conversation with oneself and decide what works for you and your life and, like you said, your value set.
[00:39:41] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: And like knowing your limits, like knowing my, like I am a helicopter mom with my cat. And I can't even imagine how I would be with a human child. Like, my cat like, sleeps for an extra hour, and I'm like, oh my god, I think he's depressed. Imagine if that was a human! I would be that person calling the pediatrician every single [00:40:00] day.
[00:40:00] And so it's like,
[00:40:02] knowing myself, knowing both these potential barriers, knowing my mental health, and saying, that might not be the best decision for me, and leaning into my authentic self, and doing the right thing. what I want to do.
[00:40:17] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: Oh, yeah. Yeah, because I will never have the money for boarding school. So if I were a parent, I would be the same way. I'm making my dog's food already. Like, I had a friend who watched me with my like, put the harness on my little dog. And the way that she saw me do it, she's like, Oh my God, you're gentle parenting your dog.
[00:40:34] Because I, I like hold it for her and let her step into it. And I say, you know, will you lift your leg please? And then I went and I'll be like, okay, I'll wait. And then she does it. And like, you know, she's like, Oh my, Maggie, just put the harness on.
[00:40:50] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Mm
[00:40:51] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: and I'm like, no, like I want her to enjoy the experience and know that, you know, it's her choice.
[00:40:56] She's same thing with her sweaters. Cause she's 10 pounds. [00:41:00] So like, same thing with her sweaters. So now when I get the sweater out, she's so excited about it. Instead of it being like. Oh, no, I, you know, I, I hate this thing. It's just like, you know, she'll put her head in and then it's like, okay, she's giving me permission.
[00:41:13] Which means I'm on the like dog consent side of TikTok, which is, that's overwhelming. It is so overwhelming, but I could talk about that all day. However, I'm not. You know, I'm not an expert. I'm just a, a dog mom who, you know, whatever. Alicia, this has been so, so fun and I hope that we can chat more and stay in touch.
[00:41:34] But before we end, will you just take a few minutes and tell everybody just another kind of quick round of how they can get in touch with you, if they want to work with you, if you have, any supports that they can access any of that kind of stuff. Just kind of tell people how to access it.
[00:41:50] And then I'll make sure that all the links for everything will be in the show notes.
[00:41:54] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Awesome, thank you. Yeah.
[00:41:55] well definitely like, in, in terms of what I think maybe your audience a cool resource is something we've talked about [00:42:00] before, is boundaries. And so I do have a workbook called Building Better Boundaries, and it talks about very like, small, tangible things we can do. Just because I think sometimes we hear the word boundaries and it's like, instant anxiety wall.
[00:42:13] And we think we have to like, jump in the deep end and set all the really firm boundaries with all the people. And we don't have to do it that way. So it's a workbook that goes over different types of boundaries even. So sometimes even just emotional boundaries within ourselves. And so, if you're in a situation where maybe other people in your life are not supporting you, Supporting the childfree choice, even just some emotional boundaries of connecting with that authentic self, being unapologetic about it, and saying like, okay, I'm gonna set a mental boundary of this is your opinion, and this is mine.
[00:42:43] That's a boundary and that can be very empowering. And so it kind of walks through some of those things. And then I'm also launching a podcast it's about being your authentic self. And so just how, talking about some of those barriers and journeys.
[00:42:56] So I think, you know, that word authenticity, it sounds great. [00:43:00] Like, Yeah.
[00:43:00] I want to be my authentic self, but you know, as we've talked about, even just the two of us today, some of our own barriers that we've gone through and The societal pressures, and the judgment, and the shame, and these Facebook trolls, or these comment trolls, and it's not always easy to really embrace that authentic self.
[00:43:18] So hopefully we'll have some good nuggets of info there. And then I've got an Instagram that I'm pretty active on. I think I'm funny sometimes or just really awkward, and my cat's there a lot, so you can do that at Alicia Johnson LMFT.
[00:43:32] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: Awesome. Yeah. I'm, I'm excited. I think, you know, authentic is one of those words that became a buzzword and people don't even necessarily know what that means anymore. And so being the authentic self, figuring out who, what, you know, when, how all of those things sounds fun. Amazing. Sounds awesome. So, and as someone who follows you on Instagram, yes, I can admit she's funny sometimes.
[00:43:56] The cat is there. All of those things. So follow her [00:44:00] and click all the buttons to get in touch with her and kind of get all of those resources. And thank you again so, so much. This has been so fun!
[00:44:09] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Yeah.
[00:44:09] maggie-dickens---unapologetically-childfree--she-her-_1_12-19-2023_150107: Thank you.
[00:44:10] Thank you again, and we will talk soon.
[00:44:13] alicia-johnson--she-her-_2_12-19-2023_100224: Sounds good, thank you so much!